I want to talk about God and Jesus and their relationship, but I don’t want to argue about it, for arguments have been going on for a couple thousand years. I do, however, wish to present some evidence to give you something different to think about, because while most large modern denominations claim God is part of a Trinity, not all think that way.1 Although some theologians glean the idea of a Trinity in the Gospels, it wasn’t an idea that was taught.
The reader must understand that this study is not meant to start a new debate, but is only presented to lend credible evidence, that can be used to discern a logical answer. You must make up your own mind, for that is what God expects of you, but it really doesn’t matter, one way or the other, in order to be saved by Jesus’ sacrifice.
Now, the first thing many will say about not believing in the Trinity is that one can’t be a Christian if you do not believe in it, but when asked, they can’t show where in the Bible that claim is made. And the second thing many will say is that one must belong to a cult, if they believe such an un-Christian thing. Of course, we all know what a cult is, right? To most, it is any group of people that believe differently than they do.
Another thought that is brought up is “If Jesus is not God, how do you explain John 1:1? ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.’”2 While that verse is used by Trinitarians to strengthen their cause, there are many more verses indicating the opposite opinion, but that verse, and others, will all have to wait for another article, because the research would make this essay much too long.
From Where Did the Trinity Idea Come?
Historically, the thought of a Trinity derived its basis from Greek philosophers of the third century AD, before the first four (of seven) church councils were called to settle the controversial issue of the relation between Jesus Christ and God his father. The Greek philosopher, Plotinus, believed in three higher principles, each one more sublime than the preceding. He taught that these principles were: the One, the Intellect, and the Soul. “His metaphysical writings have inspired centuries of Pagan, Islamic, Jewish, Christian, and Gnostic metaphysicians and mystics.”3 And even in older civilizations, there had been trinities in the religions of India, Phoenicia, Egypt, Babylonia, and Assyria. We can see, therefore, that although the Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, it is by no means peculiar to it.
The great Christian debate about the relationship between God and Jesus began a few hundred years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, when the Egyptian priest and Christian theologian, Arius of Alexandria, argued that “if the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not.”4 Arius did not like that Christian theology was being too freely mixed with Greek paganism, from which the Trinity idea came, and his statement has since been known as the Arius doctrine.
This theological conflict triggered great contention in the Christian world and led to the calling of the first ecumenical council of the Church, which centered upon the nature of the Son of God, and his precise relationship to God the Father.5 Eventually, the ecumenical councils adopted a Trinity doctrine, which says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Together these three make one God or Godhead. They are all the same and are all equal.
Although the ecumenical councils finally settled on a Trinity doctrine, Arianism was still popular, and continued in many countries and regions for hundreds of years, as well as with some still today. Basically, Arianism is the belief that the preexistent Son of God was directly created by the Father, and that he was subordinate to God the Father. “Arius taught that in the creation of the universe, the Father was the ultimate creator, supplying all the materials and directing the design, while the Son worked the materials, making all things at the bidding and in the service of the Father, by which “through [Christ] all things came into existence.”6 It was along this line of thought that Paul said Christ was in existence even before the world was created. “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions or rulers or powers — all things have been created through him and for him.” (Colossians 1:15–16)
In a similar, but very modern thought, Frank Lloyd Wright,7 the famous American architect, is credited with construction of more than 500 homes and commercial buildings, most of which still stand today. But he was not the one who manually constructed them; he designed and others built by his plans. That may be a mediocre example, but you get the idea. For being the firstborn,8 Jesus was God’s only direct creation and, thereafter, he used Jesus as the instrument through which everything else was created. This did not mean that Jesus was a co-creator with his Father, but only a servant of God, who carried out the Almighty’s will. Jesus always credited his Father with creation (see Matthew 19:4).
What About the Holy Spirit?
Even more problematic has been that of the Holy Spirit – who or what is it. The English word spirit can mean a wide variety of things. Usually, in the Bible, it is translated from Greek and Hebrew to mean ‘wind’ or ‘breath’ and by several extended meanings: ‘dominate feeling,’ ‘spirit persons,’ and ‘vital or active force.’ It is important, also, to understand this word has been “used from ancient times to describe the experience of divine power working in, upon, and around men, and understood by them as the power of God.”9 A popular Bible dictionary states that the Holy Spirit is the power or presence of God in nature or with individuals and communities, inspiring or empowering them with qualities they would not otherwise possess,10 as in the gifts of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
The idea of the Holy Spirit being part of a Godhead was not in the minds of the earliest Church members and it developed slowly, largely in response to controversies over the relation of Jesus Christ to God the Father.11 The place and character which the Holy Spirit now possesses in Christianity can be credited to ideas established long after the death of Jesus Christ. While it can be said that the Holy Spirit reflects personality (that of God and all who display his attributes), it is obvious, from scriptural research, that the Holy Spirit is not a person.
Conclusion
The Trinitarian doctrine is not rational; it just doesn’t make any sense. One would think that if the Trinity is correct, the Bible would present clear evidence in scripture and explain it throughly. There is no record of the Trinity doctrine ever being taught and, for being such an important part of Christian doctrine, it is striking that the word Trinity does not even appear in the Bible. Despite the fact that John 10:30 suggests equality between God and Jesus, and although there are a few “other New Testament texts where God, Jesus, and the Spirit are referred to in the same passage (e.g., Jude 20-21), it is important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear.”12
Although most Christians in the world, today, believe in the Trinity and that Jesus and God is the same person, serious Christians are more interested in discerning accurate knowledge from biblical research than any preconceived man-made doctrine or dogma. To these people, truth is more important than tradition. During the days when Christ’s apostles lived, the Gospel was taught with accuracy, but after their death, it did not take very long for the truth to become eroded with falsehoods and corrupted with politics.
Erosions of biblical truth grew like a cancer, slow but sure. Little-by-little, inaccuracy crept in as the gospel message of Jesus Christ became more and more popular. In an effort to increase the church membership, many pagans were brought in, and with the pagans came pagan ideas. Rituals began to replace serious Bible study and differences in opinion soon became the basis for growth of various creeds and sects. Over the span of many years, man-made rites became time-honored tradition. It is not surprising that pagan ideas are still connected with Christian religions.13 The historian, Will Durant, was right on the mark when he stated that Christianity did not destroy paganism – it adopted it.14
Christian leaders then became powerful forces in the Church as well as in politics; religious beliefs, many times, were dictated by the state. These facts, however, are not surprising considering biblical warnings.
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will….” (2 Peter 1:20)
“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions. They will even deny the Master who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. Even so, many will follow their licentious ways, and because of these teachers the way of truth will be maligned. And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words.” (2 Peter 2:1–3)
The evidence indicates that God Almighty is the Father. The Son of God is Jesus Christ, begotten by the Father. The Holy Spirit is not a person or entity, but is God’s great power – his invisible, active, penetrating, and vital force. The Trinity is definitely not biblical truth and is completely a man-made concept.
But whether you, or I, or others believe in the Trinity really isn’t critical to being saved. There was a specific reason for Jesus’ human birth, life, death, and resurrection, of which I wrote about before (see reference).15 If you live as a Christian and believe he died for your sins, then you are a Christian, for the Bible says: “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John3:16, NKJV)
Post Script: For a related article, see “John 1:1 – Does this Bible verse prove Jesus is God?”, which is listed in References & Notes.16
Copyright © 1992, 2017, Dr. Ray Hermann
OutlawBibleStudent.org
This is a revision of the publication The Trinity: Fact or Fiction? copyright © 1992 by Ray Hermann.
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References & Notes
- Religions that do not believe in or teach a Trinity: United Church of God, Church of God International, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Unitarian Universalist, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, and many minor groups, such as Living Church of God, Assemblies of Yahweh, Christadelphians, some Pentecostal groups, among others.
- Unless otherwise noted, scripture quotations are from the New Revised Standard Version Bible (NRSV), ©1989 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
- “Plotinus,” (Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., 15 July 2018), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plotinus
- “The Dispute of Arius with Alexander, his Bishop,” Socrates and Sozomenus Ecclesiastical Histories (Christian Classics Ethereal Library, retrieved 23 July 2018), http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.ii.iv.v.html
- “Arius,” (Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., 28 June 2018), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius
- “Nontrinitarianism,” (Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., 21 June 2018), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism
- “Frank Lloyd Wright,” (Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., 26 July 2017), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lloyd_Wright
- Greek: prōtŏtŏkŏs, (Strong’s G4416), meaning: first-born, first-begotten.
Strong, James, The New Strong’s Complete Dictionary of Bible Words, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1996). - Dunn, James D., Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1988), vol. 1, p. 986.
- Achtemeier, Paul J., (Ed.), Harper’s Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc., 1985), p. 401.
- Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia, (USA: Funk & Wagnalls, Inc., 1986), vol. 13, p. 166.
- Schowalter, Daniel N., The Oxford Companion to the Bible, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1993), pp. 782–783.
- Hermann, Ray, “Sun Worship, Sex in the Bible, and Church Steeples: A Brief History of Pagan Rituals and Traditions Carried into the Christian Church,” (The Outlaw Bible Student, OBS, 19 March 2018), https://outlawbiblestudent.org/sun-worship-sex-in-the-bible-and-church-steeples-a-brief-history-of-pagan-rituals-and-traditions-carried-into-the-christian-church/
- Durant, Will, Caesar and Christ, (The Story of Civilization Series), (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1944), vol. 3, p. 595.
- Hermann, Ray, “What do you mean, Christ died for our sins?” (The Outlaw Bible Student, OBS, 31 December 2017), https://outlawbiblestudent.org/what-do-you-mean-christ-died-for-our-sins/
- Hermann, Ray, “John 1:1 – Does this Bible verse prove Jesus is God?” (The Outlaw Bible Student, OBS, 7 October 2018), https://outlawbiblestudent.org/john-11-does-this-bible-verse-prove-jesus-is-god/
Losing one’s salvation depends on the basis of one’s salvation. If on God and His Son, then can’t be lost (John 10:28-29). If on oneself, then can easily be lost and found according to every personal whim and every personal change of mind.
The KJV is the best English version available today. In Rom 3:22 the KJV says that one is Justified (made righteous) by the faith OF Jesus Christ. The Christocentric basis of salvation in Christ (1Cor 1:27-31). The popular modern versions unanimously say in Rom 3:22 that one is made righteous by faith IN Jesus Christ. An Anthropocentric basis of salvation about which man can boast in himself, as fallen man (Rom 5:1-21) is prone to do. But not before God.
The claim of modern grammarians is that the phrase can be translated either way – IN or OF. They neglect to tell anyone that when a person is involved, the Genitive phrase (which is in view here) refers to possession. Ergo, the correct translation is OF. There are two Genitive phrases in Rom 3:22. In the modern versions the righteousness Of God is never translated as righteousness IN God, but faith OF Jesus Christ is always translated as faith IN Jesus Christ. Why? Tradition. Catholicism and Martin Luther’s commentary on Galatians both express this common Tradition. The KJV as the best English translation of God’s revelation available today is superior to any Tradition of man expressed in any Institution that claims to be “Christian”.
There are several reasons to not agree with Trinitarianism. When the 16th century Protestants revolted against the Western expression (a division itself from the 10th century) that became the Catholic Church; they had their chance to reject Trinitarianism, but didn’t take it. Today there are many Protestantized versions of institutions that reject Trinitarianism and claim to be the continuing expression of the Protestant Reformation.
Thank you for sharing this additional information.
To begin with christanity is not a religion , it is a faith, jesus had two personalties, god and human, as a human God was the father, as god the son he was part of god, jesus told his disciples one would come when he left to lead , guide, comfort, this was the power of God, called the holy spirit, thus the trinity, you are right trinity is not mentioned. does this being a pedophile is not a sin because it is not mentioned. also i dont consider latter day saints christian, jehova witness, reformed church, unitarin as christian. ps forgive my bad spelling.
Thank you for sharing your opinion.
What seminary school or uni did you to attend?
Please use email for personal questions, thank you. (See “Comments” in ‘The Fine Print’ section of the black menu bar.)
My family told me that in order to be Christian I have to speak in tongues and see a bright light. Since that never happened, for 15 years of my life I believed I was not Christian. Finally I get back into it, and this most recent church kept saying “To be Christian you HAVE to believe in the Trinity” I left, today actually, because I refuse to be pushed out of Christianity based on someone else’s expectations of what Christianity is.
I believe God’s word, not the word of man!!! Always!!!
TY for taking the time to hear me and speak on this subject.
Thank you for sharing your opinion and your personal history. I’m sure that what you wrote will be helpful to many.
It’s really an understanding of God. His “bigness so to speak”. God the Father God the Son God the Holy Spirit are One God.” Think of it this way. We have one brain let’s just say as an example, that’s God), in our brains we have a front brain, middle brain, and a hind brain. In other words 3 parts. Yet we say brain not brains because those three parts make up one part. That’s how the Trinity works.” Hope this helps.
Thank you. I acknowledge that it takes a long time to study these things and I appreciate that you shared this to us.
Thanks for reading this article and for expressing your thoughts. Your kind words are appreciated.
John 1:14-17 helps to clarify John 1:1. A single verse does not explain an entire gospel. It clearly delineates between God and Jesus. I get in “circular” discussions on the Trinity. Basically my position is that the concept of the “Trinity” was by committee vote, not by direct scriptural text and even un-intended in concept. It is aggressively defended by many friends of mine.
I accept that I might be missing something, but I hear prayers that thank God for sending his son, followed sermons that speak of the Trinity. The same teach that we are not to question Gospel teachings (as they teach it). I believe this “interpectoral” Doctrine comes from the early Priests (1000s years ago ) not wanting to loose credibility over a doctrine that is difficult to explain and defend. I feel that the big picture is if, you believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior, that is the main thing.
Thank you for visiting the OBS website and taking the time to share your opinion.
Thank you very much for your website and for posting your excellent article.
Well said Greg <3
Galatians 3:28
New King James Version
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
After a continual barrage of "all Christians believe…" lies, I stand firm in that I refuse to be pushed away from loving my Savior Jesus!
Only Yahweh is savior, NOT Jesus (real name Yahshua). Luke 10:25-28. et al. Isaiah 43:10-11. visit: aoycascade.com
That’s a great way of explaining it. Thanks for sharing.
On this I do agree, Jesus said that unless you excepted him as your savior the son of God that you could not see God. He is the way. Now when Peter spoke in the temple he was understood by all people of different languages. and all were amazed by this. Did he speak in tongues? I do not know but even Paul said that not all would speak in tongues, tongues is a gift like all the different gifts of the spirit, and some will preach, teach, heal, have visions.
The gifts are likened unto the body, each having different gifts and talents. I also will not go to a church that says that I have to speak in tongues to be saved. No, I have to except Jesus as my savior and I believe that his father is the creator and he is the one that we have to worship and believe in.
I enjoy this website. Do you write any about how the early Apostles taught?
Thanks!
I’m happy you enjoyed the OBS website and hope you will visit again. About the Apostles, I’ve never written a specific study just on comparing the apostles teaching methods, but that is maybe an idea for a future article. However, I have made quotes about them scattered around other articles, when it added important information.
For instance, Timothy’s early life in the article about Timothy: “Eunice & Lois: Mother & Grandmother of Timothy”, https://outlawbiblestudent.org/eunice-lois-mother-grandmother-of-timothy/
Just search for the Apostolic Pentecostal Church. They teach only what the Apostles taught because it’s the one true church taught from Jesus Christ’s own mouth.
The Oneness Pentecostal movement is a split/division of Pentecostalism. They are non-trinitarian, but follow other related beliefs of traditional Holiness Pentecostal groups, including speaking in tongues.
Explanation of John 1:1:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (ASV)
“THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.” (Moffatt)
Comments on John 1:1 by trinitarian William Barclay:
“(iii) Finally John says that the word was God. This is a difficult saying for us to understand, and it is difficult because Greek, in which John wrote, had a different way of saying things from the way in which English speaks. When Greek uses a noun it almost always uses the definite article with it. The Greek for God is theos ([Strong’s] Greek #2316) and the definite article is ho (Greek #3588). When Greek speaks about God it does not simply say theos; it says ho theos.
“Now when Greek does not use the definite article with a noun that noun becomes much more like an adjective. John did not say that the word was ho theos; that would have been to say that the word was identical with God. He said that the word was theos — without the definite article — which means that the word was, we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God. When John said the word was God he was not saying that Jesus was identical with God; he was saying that Jesus was so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being that in him we perfectly see what God is like.” – William Barclay, The Gospel of John, volume 1, page 39.
Note: If John 1:1 means “In the beginning was Jesus and the Jesus was with God, and the Jesus was God.” How can Jesus be God and be with God at the same time? Jesus died as a ransom for Adam. God is infinite and cannot die, therefor Jesus cannot be God.
In the beginning was Jesus and the Jesus was with God, and the Jesus was like God, divine.
John 17, verse 1:
“After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: ‘Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you’.”
Also, see Proverbs 8:22-30; 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.
Eisegesis is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
(Please note: A few minor adjustments were made by OBS only to make William Barclay’s explanation easier to read, and to compact the lengthy comment. The comment writer, Will, produced excellent research with no errors.)
Thank you for reading this article and for taking much time to give a detailed comment. Your research should be valuable for those interested in an educated point-of-view.
Very educated
Maybe I’m wrong this is my belief Christian or Christianity is not a religion
to Me don’t need to be in a religion to believe in Jesus . The Romain Catholic Church is a religion .
Don’t need to be in a religion to accept . Jesus did not create a religion ..There is not one good religion but good people in all religion and walk of life . He died for All of us .Find a Church that only lift up Jesus and is word be Born again . Amen
Thank you for taking the time to offer your opinion.
All false. In Greek, the word “logos” means the “oral expression of thought.” This is what we are talking about, that belongs to Yahweh. Christianity has made Yahweh’s “oral expression of thought” into a physical person called Jesus (Yahshua), and then made Yahshua into a part of Yahweh, who is incorporeal into a Trinity. Is the Holy spirit Physical?? or also incorporeal like Yahweh is?- The Trinity is complete foolishness – manmade.
The fact is, even in the unreliable Second Century false Gospel called John, we are told that Yahshua was not with the Creator Yahweh at the beginning, for we can read in John 5:26, that it says: “the Father ‘gave’ to the son to have life in himself.” This means that the son did not have “life in himself” until it was “given him” by the Father. The son cannot be the Father (who is also the Holy spirit). Yahweh has many sons. All believers in Yahweh who do His will are His sons, daughters.
Jesus was indeed God. God has been called by several names but in this instance God created himself a fleshy body and it was to be called Jesus Christ and by using that name and going through the human process he was beat he was ritaculed and died to change the church from the law of Moses to him shedding his blood to cover all of ours sins. That’s why he said he would never put something on us we couldn’t handle because he had been there and he knew first hand
If you are referring to scripture at 1 Corinthians 10:13, that is not what was said. It was not Jesus but Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthians, who said:
“No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it” (1 Corinthians 10:13, EVS).
I am under the belief that Jesus was the well versed son of God, Not God. I will not believe that Jesus was a fool that would claim to be the son of God if he was God. I would not follow a belief in which that God had to talk to himself or pray to himself. That is just beyond my comprehension.
Jesus taught from the Torah, born of the flesh to the linage of Abraham to fulfill the prophies of the bible about the coming Messiah. The savior of the world and the son of God like he says. If you ignore what he says about himself, then why are you trying to lead people in the wrong direction. Your words are inaccurate, untruthful, and misleading. And you will be judged for misinforming people that are looking toward you to lead them in the ways of Christ and the way to eternal life with God.
I was raised not believing in trinity…but for a while was confused now after studying the Holy Spirit in bible it’s plain to me the trinity is man made..
My church teaches the trinity, I have spoke out that I dont believe in trinity but will not quarrel over such. The church teaches salvation thru Jesus so I enjoy my friends..
There is no perfect church I believe what I feel as I study bible and ask HOLY SPIRIT for wisdom.. I’m single and enjoy people too much to stay home..but if asked to believe in something that I feel is not biblical I would leave.
Thanks for sharing your point of view and your experiences. Like you, I let people know what I believe, but I’m not going to enter into a debate or argument. To those who are interested, I will discuss the subject, but I don’t believe in ‘arm twisting’ to change someone’s mind.
Look for a https://www.biblestudents.org/sample-page/ in your area
I’ve been a Born Again Christian for 44 years now. After years of bible study and asking every single time for the Holy Spirits truth, I’ve become a Non-trinitarian. How can anyone STUDY the Book of John and come to any other determination. The doctrine itself was first introduced by Tertullian at the end of the 2nd century.
Monotheism is the Doctrine or Belief That There Is Only One God (Supreme Being)
I believe our Lord and Savior came to earth from God through the power of God’s Holy Spirit. He is God’s Son, impregnated in Mary by God’s Holy Spirit. Jesus proceeded from deity as God’s son. He was so full of God’s spirit he was and is sin free unlike the rest of God’s creation.
So, I have a problem. I can’t find a church to attend. The groups that are Non-trinitarian ALL have some kind of outlandish beliefs.
I’ve been debating the Pentecostal nonsense about the supposed mystical Rapture for decades… There’s just to much to add… So I’ll move on.
How about the bible being the inerrant word of God? The longer I’ve studied bible the more convinced of what the “church” has done to the Truth… Documents and Letters were collected and the “church” has tried to make that collection of documents and letters “Divine”.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV):
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
This passage merely says that “all scripture” is profitable for doctrine, reproof, etc. It doesn’t say anything about scripture being “perfect”, or “inerrant”, or “infallible”, or “all-sufficient”.
So, Where Do I go? I stay home.
Thank you for your comment and for taking the time to share your testimony. Sometimes a Christian journey is difficult, but by study and perseverance, you have been led to truth. Sometimes such a journey is lonely, especially when others can’t see what we see but, at least, we were warned about that by our Lord.
I tell people that if they are uncomfortable with going to a church service, then don’t go. Some go to a church that is somewhat close to their beliefs for social support, but meet privately with others that have similar thoughts and ideas as you do. When speaking with others in private, it doesn’t hurt to throw out some tidbit of your thought process to test the waters — it could develop into a private bible study group.
Currently, although ordained as a Christian minister, I am unchurched, so like you, I stay home. The more research I do, the less I agree with the doctrine of most established church organizations.
Narrow is the way, few there be that find it….
Yes, and thank you for taking the time to comment.
Hello Annette, I share your thinking and frustrations so if you ever find a church/ group that shares these ideals, please let me know.
great time to look into Islam or judaism. Both have preserved god as the all powerful and jesus as a prophet of god.
I like you have found every church that I have attended has many faults. That is because it is here on earth and taught by man, and interrupted by each person that reads it. Jesus solved this dilemma by making it very clear that he was the son of God and the only way to get this eternal life we had to except Jesus as our salvation and forgiveness of our sins. Are any of us able to live sin free, no, that is why we pray every day to ask forgiveness for our sins that we knowingly committed and the ones that we committed unknowingly.
On Sunday I watch my favorite tv preacher, worship with them and if I want to go to church I go to the one that I am most comfortable with. When you find that the church is covering up misdeeds, or the truth is being changed then leave and look around for one that comes closest to what you believe is closest to what the bible teaches . To many people gets sucked into cults that can be dangerous. God is love and wants us to enjoy his love, be it thru, learning thru the church you attend, your own study of the word, and looking around and recognizing all of his wonderful creations.
Thanks for writing this, I too don’t believe in the Trinity but when I attended church (C of E) and asked for an explanation all I got was the same diagram that always comes up and a “…well it’s complicated” explanation. The more I have read the bible the more obvious this “truth” is more like opinion.
I’ve left the Church as the more I looked at it the more ritualistic I found it. I’m certain that was not Gods or Jesus’ intention for how we should worship and pray to him. I really want to find a church that brings people like you and I together. Where the bible is taught as it was and is the heart of all teaching but it seems to be difficult
I know this is an older post , but I wanted to say I am very much where you are- but it’s important to my husband to attend our church and part of serving God is serving my husband. It is lonely when you believe what I do ( universal reconcillation, no trinity, no free will, etc) but I won’t change what I know is in the Word of God. I’ll just add that scripture when written in it’s original Greek and Hebrew is the word of God and is inerrant. Translations are where we go wrong ( but without a translation who would understand anything at all ?) ps. Try reading Askelm ( Ernest Martin ) or L. Ray Smith at bibletruths.
Just a Note: For those readers that are unfamiliar with ASKELM, it stand for Associates for ‘Scriptural Knowledge – Ernest L Martin’. The A.S.K. site can be reached at – https://www.askelm.com/
The other site is ‘L. Ray Smith Bible Truths’ and the URL is – https://bible-truths.com/
I believe the trinity is a man made concept not biblical, God is our Heavenly Father, Jesus is his chosen son and to be a Christian one must believe that, John 3:16. The Holy Spirit is the help mate from God given by him to help guide the Apostles, a breath of knowledge for them.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Many have the same opinion, but are afraid to express it.
Well said.
Well said. I so agree with what you said. God the creator and only God, Jesus being the son of God and the holy spirit being the comforter and able to help us make the right decisions.
Glad to have come across this article today. Recently I have been challenged on this, although had never heard of the trinity. I am “self taught” using the word self lightly because what I mean is… My walk with God has been without a church or fellowship, just me and God and His word.
All the while without an inkling of trinity doctrine appearing in my studies. After 4 years like this, I finally meet a couple who quickly became my first close brother and sister in Christ…however they soon after started to almost oppress on me the importance of the Holy Trinity.
I knew right away that… If this holy trinity is so important… Then why don’t I know of it already? Surely, after all this time getting to know my Saviour I would have come across the concept. Surely, it would be my Fathers will for me to know this. But no, not once has the spirit that dwells in me been glad to hear of the trinity, only highlighting the scriptural contradictions of the doctrine.
I’d been an infant in christ for so long, my friends have challenged me and continue to challenge me, yet I am unmoved! I often times settled the “debate” by reminding them that, it doesn’t matter that you think if I don’t believe the trinity I won’t be saved… Because, I believe in Jesus Christ, He saved me, I am Saved!
I think what you have said in this article is True and Factual. I am 100% inclined to distrust man’s doctrine.. And even some secondary doctrines like the pre trib rapture because the word of God is enough. God’s Grace is enough! The Holy Trinity is something to research and decide for your self, but reading the Scriptures and and Gospels in full and in context will be truth enough for you. Thank you Outlaw Bible Student!
I am happy you found this website and I appreciate that you felt comfortable in sharing you experience. I think it is wonderful that you were able to build a relationship with God and Jesus without depending upon any biased intermediary.
Much more than once, I have been told that I can’t be a real Christian unless I accept this ‘fact’ of the Trinity. Such a person will say that to me, but they can’t give me a straight explanation of this three-in-one doctrine.
At one time, when I was young, I felt uneasy, because I was unable to grasp the idea that was being presented to me. Now I know it is a wrong teaching and I am quite comfortable knowing the truth. As you implied, if the Trinity is true, it should be obvious — show it to me in the Bible.
Thank you too, for the kind words, but I thank God for allowing me to publish what he has taught me; about himself, his son, and their diving plan to one day give us back all that was lost in the Garden of Eden, when our first parents sinned.
Most of my life I studied on my own, continually debating much of what was being taught in my formal education. I always trusted my ‘gut feelings’ when studying man’s doctrines. You may be interested in another article, “ Is that Gut Feeling a Message from God?” https://outlawbiblestudent.org/is-that-gut-feeling-a-message-from-god/
Parts of a tree that were not visible in the sapling can be seen when the tree is grown, though they were present in embryo in the sapling. John Henry Newman
Like Mary herself we are “pondering these things in our hearts” (Luke 2 v 19)
“When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child (John the Baptist) least in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, ‘Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. And why has this happened to me that the mother of my Lord comes to me?’ (Luke1: 41-43)
Jesus ‘the Word’ made flesh. God incarnate.
Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts.
I am going to expand this a bit further. Arius was right. “If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not.” Where he went wrong is to believe Christ “pre-existed”. That was wrong.
It is clearly evident that Jesus was not a trinitarian. He was also not a Unitarian. He was, as were all Jews, a believer in One God. He claimed to be that One God. John 10v30 says “I, and the Father are One”. When taken to task by the Jews, Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am.” (Claiming He was indeed God) Never, in spite of all the opportunities, did He say he was one of three.
But Jesus has a beginning. He (God) became flesh. When Jesus was conceived God begat a Son, a human being, the very first born human son of God in all creation. God therefore has entered Fatherhood.
If God is One, and Jesus is His first-born, with all the rights of the first-born son, what does it mean when John (a Jew) wrote to a Jewish audience about the Word and the Word becoming flesh? Jewish thinking using a Greek word. The Jews, as seen in the OT understood God at work by Davar (word – or Divine authoritative will), and God at work by His Ruah (Spirit0. In both cases, God is seen to be entering into the Human physical aspect (dimension – time and space) that He created and the Human spiritual aspect (Spirit spoke, came upon, etc). Every act of God in the realm of molecules is by His creative word (Divine authoritative Will) is the work of the Word – God involved in physical things. The Jews knew this. As too the work of His Spirit.
Lets think quantum physics. We are a soul – a God breathed human pneuma living in a human physical body. How is God, who is outside creation, going to express himself in our dual dimensions? (Our minds are the souls interface between our spirit and our life on earth).
In the beginning of the physical creation of time and space God took action and uttered it into being, and the Divine authoritative Will, no matter what God expressed His will (Earthquakes, appearing to Abraham, burning bush, speaking through a donkey, miracles etc) was His Word at work. And is the Word that created the zygote in Mary. So, Jesus is the Word, as the Word is God and God is Jesus. No trinity. I AM created the physical universe, I AM became a human baby, I AM rose from the dead. And the Holy Spirit? Same thing. We are created in His (God’s) image and by Word and by Spirit He comes to His creatures.
Surely, Lets think quantum physics. We live in a [comment received with no additional wording].
Your comment is appreciated. Thank you for reading the article and sharing your thoughts. It is evident that you have not only given this idea much attention, but studied the scripture as well as newer scientific knowledge, too.
I guess the scholarly debate is if the scripture is indicating ‘sameness’ or ‘equality’? Did God become Jesus, or did God still occupy the heavenly realm, while Jesus was on earth? Jesus did pray to his father, while he was earthbound.
One suggestion is that in the quantum world, information and matter can be instantly duplicated, extracted, and entangled across the universe. So, would that apply also to spiritual things?
I am awe stricken to have found this article, specifically because of my lack of understanding about the “trinity.” I have searched high and low throughout my life since I was the age of 8. I have listened carefully to the JW and in many ways agree with their philosophy, however, along come so many nonsense practices and I’m totally turned off. This is the same as the so called Christian Religions. I do believe our salvation is not based on whether or not I believe in the trinity. I believe Jesus is my Savior and he died for my sins so that I might have life more abundantly. As you may have guessed by now I have no place of worship except in my heart at home. I believe There is no perfect church due to all the paganism already have infiltrated from the beginning of Christianity. So where do I worship, where are those who believe as I. I need to learn so much more.
Thank you for stopping by this website. And thank you for your comment; it is appreciated. There are others out there who believe like you do, but most are afraid to admit it.
If someone is uncomfortable in their local church, there is nothing wrong with worshiping our God from home, if we wish. When we do meet a like-minded believer or two, a private and casual meeting on a regular basis in the home is quite appropriate. Discussions and prayer over coffee or tea once a week is popular among many. You will be surprised what comfort and freedom of pressure such meetings can achieve.
The most knowledgeable Christian I knew, didn’t go to church, but learned and studied at home. You are correct. There is no perfect church. All church organizations teach somewhat differently from each other. I used to think that among those, there must be one that is right and I used to search for it. Over my life, I have found that none of them are 100% right. They all have bits and pieces of truth, but none have it all.
I hope you will return here from time to time.
We will know at the end of times. That God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God bless us all
Thank you for reading this article and sharing your opinion.
Jesus said that he sits on the right hand side of the father. It does not say the returned to his throne, but to his father and will return for us that are saved and believe in him as the savior and redeemer of all sin.
Id like to know what unscriptural practices Jehovahs Witnesses partake in?
Thank you for reading this article and for taking the time to write; that is appreciated.
Most so-called ‘unscriptural practices’ in any religion depend upon the beliefs of the person criticizing a particular religion. I am not a JW, but I believe they teach much truth. There are also some things I believe they get wrong, too. But, I can find more to debate about in some larger Christian religions than I can in the JWs.
So, I really find nothing unscriptural in their religion, but rather just of a different interpretation than my own.
I have been a non believer in the trinity for as long as I can remember. I attended Catholic grade school 3-6. Unless to say, I kept my opinions to myself! (nuns can be a mean lot)
Over the years I searched for a religion that did not teach the trinity, in vane. I happened upon JW organization. I found that I liked their bible studies and most of their teachings with one glaring exception. Paul! I could not and would not “shun” my family, friends, co-workers, neighbors simply because they were not of the JW community. And believe me, they impose that sternly!
But I will pit them against any Christian when it comes to knowing the bible and having one of the best study groups around. I enjoyed your article here and Thank You for your great answer to the question I have grappled with for years, Can I say I am a Christian? Yes I am, because of this wonderful article.
Thank you very much for your kind words and I appreciate that you took the time to comment and share your experience. Many people have communicated the same reactions to Jehovah’s Witnesses on the issue of shunning. I am happy that you derived some personal peace from this article and I pray that you can use the studies you had with JWs to advance your relationship with God and his son.
You need to know that they take from and add to the bible that is why you have to read their bible the new world translation of the holy scriptures and if there is something in there you don’t understand you have a book of reasoning they do not believe that jesus is coming back for his people the rapture to remove us from the tribulation then bring us back after it’s over to rein on earth.they dont.let you research anything from their bible you are not allowed to and you do not take it subtract from the word of god that is in deuteronomy 4 2
Thank you for leaving a comment and sharing your personal knowledge about JWs.
Thank you for your response. JW’s are wonderful and dedicated to following the Bible.
There is a disconnect with The Organization they follow.
Many things they are required to follow are not Bible requirements.
The organization has many disturbing cases of child abuse and refusing to follow Romans Ch 13: 1-4.
No. You can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe in Jesus. And he died on the cross for you for your sines. An except Jesus as your lord an saviour. NO.
Also you can’t enter heaven. Please seek the LORD. Except HIM. Jesus is coming back soon
Thanks for viewing the article and adding your comment. I agree that Jesus will be returning sooner, than later.
Thank you for reading this article and taking the time to express your opinion. Like you, I do believe in Jesus and that he died for my sins. I do accept him as my savior. I also believe that God and Jesus are two individual entities.
There is one God and one mediator, the man Jesus Messiah…..if they both were God and co equal, Jesus couldn’t be the mediator between us and God .
Your comment makes much sense in just a few words. Thanks for sharing your thought.
Some Jews believe in Jesus, as far as the fact that he was a man. They don’t believe that he was the Son of God, however. I still can’t get over the fact that they (some of them) can’t believe that Jesus at least existed. Maybe not the Messiah, but just a simple son of a carpenter. It’s mind blowing to me, given that he is even mentioned in the Quran!
Thank you for your comment and for sharing your opinion.
For those readers who may be interested in Messianic Jews, please see the article “Judeo-Christian vs. Messianic Jew”. Here is the link: https://outlawbiblestudent.org/judeo-christian-vs-messianic-jew/
Even Bart Ehrman, a renowned biblical scholar and self-described atheist, stipulates to the existence of Jesus. There are several non-biblical sources from antiquity that speak of Jesus, and I believe some are Jewish (EX: Josephus).
The enemy is working hard within the world!
Hi, this is my first time visiting this website. I am in a somehow complicated situation and would really appreciate advice – To share, I am currently following Islam but my partner has difficulties to accept and follow that particular belief and hence she proposed why not look into christianity together.
I am open and henceforth we went and joined friends at the local church group. During the sermon I felt strange really due to one reason only and that is the repeated mentioning of Jesus as the Lord and his name being more stated, sung and somehow “worshipped” than God.
If you believe in the trinity I believe that is ok, since Jesus is supposed to be a part or manifestation of god (?) … but personally for myself I just have this very strong belief that God is one (unvidided) omnipotent being and that Jesus is a very very special human being (born to Maria by the power of God) to spread Gods message to us.
I am sorry but that just does make more senses to me and aligns with the line of God’s chosen ones before Jesus, such as Abraham and Moses, all of them spreading Gods message. Can you give me advice on how to manage this if I really would pursue christianity with my partner together? I would like my partner to also strengthen her belief in god.
First, I want to thank you for visiting this website and taking the time to share your thoughts. The concerns you have are common, as not all Christians believe in the Trinity theory, although most do. God gave us all free will, so you get to decide what to believe. A sincere Christian, following Jesus’ teaching, will eventually arrive at the truth. But your opinion may change several times over the course of your journey. Just keep in mind that God is not out to get you on a technicality. He is a God of love.
Like you, I believe Almighty God is one entity. However his created son (before being born as Jesus) appeared many times in the Old Testament as a godlike being, doing the work of his Father. When it was time for the savior to appear to the world, God’s son had the job of being born a human being. After death and resurrection, he again returned to God’s presence. God and Jesus may be partners in running this universe, but God makes the final decisions, and they have plenty of other spiritual beings to help them. Most people pray to God; some to Jesus, and a few to both. Do what you are comfortable doing, there is no disrespect.
May you and your partner gain a fuller and deeper understanding of God’s love for humanity, as well as gain evidence supporting a coming renewed new world of peace. But the most precious gift awaiting you both is the possibility of an eternal life.
This is all a bit of an overwhelming view. However, I crammed a lot into a brief response to you. I hope and pray you will continue in learning about Christianity. It is like a puzzle, where the picture gets clearer as more pieces get put together. I get several private emails and letters on this subject and here are a few related articles I suggest.
“John 1:1 – Does this Bible verse prove Jesus is God?” https://outlawbiblestudent.org/john-11-does-this-bible-verse-prove-jesus-is-god/
“Why did God say: ‘Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness?’” https://outlawbiblestudent.org/why-did-god-say-let-us-make-man-in-our-image-after-our-likeness/
“The Names of God in the Holy Bible” https://outlawbiblestudent.org/the-names-of-god-in-the-holy-bible/
“What do you mean, Christ died for our sins?” https://outlawbiblestudent.org/what-do-you-mean-christ-died-for-our-sins/
Hi, I know some Muslim friends and they told me they believe Jesus is a prophet but not God. However, Jesus mentioned one thing that is important. ‘I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.’
Jesus has saved my life, I read a lot of the gospels in some difficulty of my life. Because of Him, I start to find the truth and it reveals everything.
Thank you so much for posting this. I’ve been on a quest on finding truth about the trinity since it’s not really in the Bible. This is so helpful!
Thank you for reading this article and I pray you will learn much in your continued search for Bible truth. Your kind comment is appreciated.
Thank you for your writ. The trinity does not matter, that is if you do not have that additional knowledge that it is not something the Apostles practiced let alone even knew of. When you have the additional knowledge that the trinity doctrine is not an actual article of faith for Christians then it does matter.
I was a faithful Orthodox Christian for most of my life. After “making sure of all things, and holding fast to what is fine”, and through fervent prayer I walked away from my family’s generations spanning some 200 years plus, of practicing Christian Orthodoxy. I then spent 18 years as a Jehovah’s Witness only to once again walk away from that religion as it too is fraught with legalistic, and unscriptural practices that oppress the ancient, and simple message of our God, and of our Savior.
Because of this, my burden is heavier than most as I am of a Scattered Brethren not ascribing to any certain “church” of Christendom.
Thank you for viewing this article and for taking the time to share your thoughts. I pray that your experiences, although not easy, have allowed you to not only grow in faith, but to use them to understand and help others in their own search for knowledge. I know there are plenty of sincere Christians with similar backgrounds and situations. You never know when or where a seed has been planted. And I pray also, despite the burden, you find a comfort zone.
Hello,
I think God is at work when this debate is going on.
It is also he who make you wonder.
I was raised a Roman Catholic but I know I don’t believe everything he said. Also, every one has a different experience with God. So even I know I don’t believe the way my fellow catholic do, God is still with me. God is merciful,
I believe we all will be saved at the end. There are many reasons why some ‘sinful’ people are drawn to a certain group of character because they want to be saved as well, just like how many sinned were drawn to Jesus.
I appreciate your comment and that you read this article. I believe, as you do, no matter what church someone belongs to, there will be some differences of opinion among the members.
I always believe in the Trinity but I see your point of view. It is something to think about. I did not know so many religions has Trinity too.
I appreciate your comment and glad it gives you something to think about.
I never believed in trinity but always afraid to tell people at church. You right it don’t make sense. I tried to make sense of it. I do feel better knowing some others feel the same as me.
Thanks for sharing your feelings. I’ve been a Christian minister, counselor, teacher, researcher, and writer, but sometimes people still tell me I’m not a Christian for questioning this doctrine. Like I stated, believing the Trinity doctrine isn’t of crucial importance to being saved. I hold nothing against people who do, or do not believe. All will become clear, one day . . . we will be either right or wrong. I look forward to being corrected, if necessary.
I’ve heard it too many times and that’s why I’m all done with Christianity. I can’t stand John MacArthur because he said, “rejecting Trinity attacks the nature of God and cuts you off of the possibility of salvation.”
Christians don’t reflect God whatsoever. I’m getting out of this debacle of a religion.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I don’t believe rejecting the Trinity has anything to do with salvation. Yes, one can lose their salvation, but not by that way. Many people claim to be Christians, but don’t reflect God’s attributes, however many do. Please don’t give up. For an article titled “Hebrews 6:4 — Can We Lose Our Salvation?” see this link: https://outlawbiblestudent.org/hebrews-64-can-we-lose-our-salvation/
1 John 5:7
1 John 5:7 does not imply a co-equal trinity whatsoever. It’s amazing that people are so gullible to believe such a thing.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I agree — I believe you are correct that it is not about the Trinity.
Most likely, 1 John 5:7-8 is a reference to Deuteronomy 19:15, which is about the law concerning witnesses. Witnesses can speak for or against a person to establish clear testimony and establish facts about a legal case. The Spirit testifies along with the water of Jesus’ baptism, and his atoning blood. Also, see Matthew 18:16.